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홈/ 질문/Q 164097
다음
진행 중
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등록일: 2003-02-232003-02-23T11:59:00+09:00 2003-02-23T11:59:00+09:00카테고리: Inventor & Solidworks

인벤터에서의 Surface 성능은 어느정도입니까?

안녕하세요 오늘 첨 가입한 초보인데여~~~

인벤터에서의 Surface 성능은 어느정도인지 알고 싶어서 이렇게 문을 두드립니다.
하이엔드급의 3D CAD Tool은 다뤄봤지만, 미드레인지급의 Tool은 잘 모르거든요.
사실 하이엔드급과 미드레인지급의 성능차이는surface라는 말을 어디서 줏어들어가지고, 미드레인지급에서 강한 성능을 보이고 있다는 Inventor의 Surface의 성능은 어느정도인지 알고 싶습니다.
물론 몇천만원하는 하이엔드급과 비교한다는건 어렵지만…..

잠깐 게시판을 뒤져보니 약간의 언급은 있는것 같던데 그것외에 Boundary Surface기능이라던지, 3D 공간상에 Point를 이용한 3D curve 를 이용한 곡면 생성이라던지……

솔직히 어느 Tool이던 Solid Modeling은 거기서 거기같거든요.
얼마나 곡면의 표현이 자유로운지에 대한게 관건인거 같은데…

========================

지금 회사에서 돈을 너무 아끼는 바람에 CAD tool M/A 체결도 못하고있는데 사람들의 욕구는 점점더 늘어만가고 Tool은 안사주고…..ㅠㅠ;;

결국 하이엔드급을 포기하고 미드레인지 급으로 눈을 돌리면서 여기저기 기웃기웃하고 있는 상황입니다.

사실 영업사원들이 DEMO하고 말하는것은 다 자랑만 늘어놓지만 실질적으로 엔드유저들이 어느정도로 만족감을 느끼고 있는지, 또한 실업무에서의 성능은 어느정도인지가 제 생각으로는 더 중요한거 같구요.

기계부품, 설비장치, 기계정치, Press물 등은 Solid Modeling으로
충분히 가능하나 제품외관, Mold, 주물 쪽에 접근하게되면 Suface 기능이 많이 필요해질것 같은데……

일단 고수님들의 조언을 듣고 싶습니다……

============================================
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    • 인벤터 작업표시줄 …으로 생략하는방법
    • 인벤터 패턴 관련
    • 인벤터 절곡 플랜지 관련 질문 입니다.
    • Inventor professional 사용하고있는데 인벤터도 오토캐드처럼 별칭편집없나요?

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    1. aalan
    2. · · ‥…··...
      2003-02-24T00:00:00+09:00답변 등록 답변 등록 일시 2003-02-24 12:00 am

      링크가 잘 안되었내요. http://www.cadalyst.com/solutions/model/0103model/index.htm 로 직접가서 보세요.

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    3. · · ‥…··─━☆
      2003-02-24T01:25:00+09:00답변 등록 답변 등록 일시 2003-02-24 1:25 am

      안녕하세요,

      흠…제품 선전하는거 같긴 하지만 알고 있는 부분들을 적어봅니다. Inventor 6 에서는 곡면 모델링 기능이 왕창 추가되었죠. 사실 Inventor 는 솔리드 모델러인데 6 버전에서부터 곡면모델링 기능(quilt, stitch, surface features, delete face, replace face, promote…)들이 추가되었답니다.

      이건 음… 요즘 3D CAD 제품들의 추세이기도 하죠. 솔리드와 서피스 모델링의 통합으로 이제 설계자는 실제 제품의 디자인을 위해 더 정확하고 현실적으로 표현할수 있게 되었죠. 처음 곡면 모델러로 시작한 3D CAD 가 솔리드 모델링을 거쳐 이제는 솔리드와 서피스 모델링의 통합으로 이어지게 된 거죠.

      Autodesk Inventor 6 버전부터는 이런 모델링 개념의 발전으로 솔리드와 서피스 모델링간에 자유자재로 옮겨다니며 원하는 디자인을 할 수 있답니다.

      곡면모델링이 필요한 부분에 molding 부분을 예기하셨는데 이부분은 Autodesk Inventor 로 기대하셔도 될겁니다.

      아래 리플에는 솔리드와 서피스 모델링의 개념에서 부터 현재의 trend 까지 Don LaCourse 라는 설계자가 쓴 글을 카피해서 올립니다.

      출처는 http://www.cadalyst.com/solutions/model/0103model/index.htm 입니다.

      휘리릭…

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    4. · · ‥…··─━☆
      2003-02-24T01:28:00+09:00답변 등록 답변 등록 일시 2003-02-24 1:28 am





      when surfaces meet solids
      Midrange MCAD applications
      benefit as surfaces and solids converge.

      By Don
      LaCourse

      src=”http://www.cadalyst.com/images/interface/corner_ul.gif”
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      class=box>don.lacourse@cadalyst.com“> src=”http://www.cadalyst.com/Library/authorbios/Don_LaCourse.gif”
      width=90 align=right>Don LaCourse has spent the last 24 years in
      product design, mold design, and CAD/CAM operations. He is a
      Cadalyst contributing editor and president of The Solid Modeling
      ExChange, a design, applications support, and online help
      documentation firm in Cookeville, Tennessee.


      This article originally appeared in the January
      2003 issue of CADALYST Magazine.
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      In this article
      Thanks to the
      following companies for contributing time, material, and images to
      this column:
         
      href=”http://www.autodesk.com/” target=_blank>Autodesk
      (Inventor)
         
      href=”http://www.solid-edge.com/” target=_blank>EDS PLM
      Solutions (Solid Edge)
         
      href=”http://www.ptc.com/” target=_blank>PTC
      (Pro/ENGINEER)
         
      href=”http://www.solidworks.com/” target=_blank>SolidWorks
      (SolidWorks)
         
      href=”http://www.think3.com/” target=_blank>think3 Corp.
      (thinkdesign)
         
      href=”http://www.vx.com/” target=_blank>VX Corp. (VX
      CAD/CAM)

      See Also
         
      class=box_white
      href=”http://www.cadalyst.com/solutions/model/0103model/glossary.htm”>Glossary
      of Solid and
         
      href=”http://www.cadalyst.com/solutions/model/0103model/glossary.htm”>Surfacing
      Terms

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      With little fanfare, EDS PLM Solutions and the
      folks down in Huntsville, Alabama, added basic surface modeling functionality to
      Solid Edge v12 earlier this year. Though meant only to provide users with basic
      tools needed to import and repair 3D models that are less than perfect solids,
      this addition is a significant development. When viewed from the broader MCAD
      industry perspective, it signals one more nail in the coffin of the solids-only
      midrange MCAD application. SolidWorks Corp. with its flagship product broke
      similar ground in recent releases.

      These MCAD developers recognize the important role that surface modeling can
      play in building complex solid models. They are joining the ranks of veteran
      surface/solid applications such as VX CAD/CAM from VX Corp. and thinkdesign from
      think3. Surfaces and solids are finally converging in midrange MCAD
      applications, to the benefit of all users.

      IN THE BEGINNING
      When solid modeling made its debut
      in the mid-1980s, MCAD vendors employed two distinct database structures (CSG
      and B-rep). CSG (constructive solid geometry) used mathematical Boolean
      operations (union, subtraction, and intersection) to implicitly combine simple
      solid shapes to form more complex shapes. B-rep (boundary representation)
      explicitly positioned and related surface elements to form an airtight boundary
      that enclosed the volume defined by the part.

      figure src=”http://www.cadalyst.com/solutions/model/0103model/fig1.jpg”
      width=300 border=1>
      Figure 1. Imported surface data displays
      problem areas on several surfaces. Solid Edge v12’s new
      interrogation tools highlight problem areas of the surface model, in
      this case, nonstitched edges. Using Solid Edge’s new tools for
      trimming, extending, and creating surfaces from bounded edges, we
      fixed the surfaces and added missing ones, then stitched the
      surfaces together to form a solid
      body.

      Both methods had
      their uses and merits. B-rep was predominantly used by the 3D surface modelers
      of the day. Early solid modelers employed CSG.

      SHARED ROOTS
      Surface and solid modelers today share
      the same roots within their database structures. CSG was fine for the early
      solid modelers, but soon went by the wayside as users demanded the ability to
      model more complex shapes that CSG alone could not handle. In stepped hybrid
      modelers that took advantage of the strengths of both CSG and B-rep.

      As MCAD developers migrated toward their second generation of modelers,
      programmers discovered how to employ CSG-like operations using B-rep. You still
      find Boolean operations in today’s solid modelers, even though virtually all of
      today’s MCAD applications (surface and solids) use B-rep as their sole database
      structure.

      WHAT IS A SOLID?

      figure src=”http://www.cadalyst.com/solutions/model/0103model/fig2.jpg”
      width=300 border=1>
      Figure 2. SolidWorks’ Surface Fill command
      quickly and easily fills in a complex area with a surface that is
      tangent to all adjacent existing
      faces.

      In today’s
      modelers, a solid is nothing more than a set of surfaces whose topology forms a
      closed volume. Topology refers to the relationship of a part’s mating vertices,
      edges, and faces. Solid modeling operations are governed by internal rules that
      maintain valid topology. Valid topology means that all surfaces are present and
      do not intersect each other and that multiple volumes do not share vertices,
      edges, or faces, among other things.

      Surface modeling is not governed by these rules. You are free to create any
      number of surfaces, in any order. They may connect cleanly, or they may not.
      It’s up to you to employ clean modeling techniques. This freedom attracts many
      users and is what makes surface modeling so powerful. Once a surface model is
      complete, you can use a simple “thickness” command to convert it to a solid.

      TODAY’S HYBRID MODELERS

      figure src=”http://www.cadalyst.com/solutions/model/0103model/fig3.jpg”
      width=200 border=1>
      Figure 3. Pro/ENGINEER’s Interactive Surface
      Design Extension (ISDX) converts a surface model to a
      solid.

      Hybrid modeling
      now refers to MCAD applications that employ both surface and solid modeling
      operations. They combine the ease of use of solids with powerful surface
      creation and editing tools-the best of both methods. In a hybrid modeler, you
      can temporarily suspend valid topology rules of solid modeling under controlled
      conditions.

      You can apply traditional solid feature operations, such as holes, pockets,
      protrusions, fillets, and chamfers, to open sets of surfaces. At the same time,
      you can explode a solid to gain access to its underlying set of surfaces, then
      apply surface modeling operations. You can add, remove, or replace surfaces, and
      perform local surface modifications such as control point editing (tweaking).
      When the required surface modeling is complete, sew the surfaces back into a
      solid (provided they form a closed volume).

      A CONVERGING INDUSTRY
      Developers of traditional
      solids-only applications add surface creation tools for a number of reasons, and
      some vendors are further along than others. Other than the obvious need for
      complex surface handling, the solids-only roots of many modelers cause problems
      for

      figure src=”http://www.cadalyst.com/solutions/model/0103model/fig4a.jpg”
      width=300 border=1>
      Figure 4. VX CAD/CAM v7 lets you work with surface
      or solid models or both within the same part or assembly. Solid
      feature tools can be applied to open surface sets such as those used
      to create the handle in this design.
      (top) VX CAD/CAM provides
      complex surface creation tools as well as control point editing
      (tweaking) and analysis and visualization tools.
      (right) A new
      Design Optimizer automatically adjusts driving dimensions to achieve
      a target parameter such as the volume in this bottle design.
      figure src=”http://www.cadalyst.com/solutions/model/0103model/fig4b.jpg”
      width=125 vspace=3
      border=1>

      users trying to
      import and work with surface models or imperfect solid models. Neutral format
      import and export translators such as IGES can produce topological errors, even
      if the part began as a solid. Such errors can be caused by faulty translator
      code, mixed interpretation of the standard, support for only a subset of the
      standard, and the like.

      To solve this problem, solids-only developers are starting to provide the
      surface creation and editing tools needed to repair those less-than-perfect
      models everyone seems to get once in a while. The hybrid solid/surface modelers
      never faced this problem, but did need to provide better-than-average import and
      export translators to handle the more complex surface models out there.

      All users will benefit when the industry unites on support for both surfaces
      and solids. The expanded design envelope that surfaces bring to users of
      traditional solids-only applications is only one benefit. Import and export
      translators should improve because developers will have to export the new
      surface entities their programs can now create. With improved export, improved
      import must follow.

      WHAT SHOULD YOU BUY?
      Even with the convergence of
      surfaces and solids well underway, MCAD applications differ in their strengths
      and weaknesses in each area. You can count on all applications to offer the
      basics of feature-based solid modeling. They differ in their integration,
      approach, and support for surfacing functionality. If you are wondering, “What
      should I buy?,” you should ask some additional questions as well.

      figure src=”http://www.cadalyst.com/solutions/model/0103model/fig5.jpg”
      width=300 border=1>
      Figure 5. Table Lighter created by Alessi
      Giovannoni Design using thinkdesign. This is another good example of
      the application of solid features on a free-form shape—see the
      thickness, ribs, holes, and bosses in the image on the
      left.

      What will I use
      the application for?
      What you plan to design plays a significant role in
      deciding what products to look at. If you work with complex free-form shapes
      that require attention to aesthetics and ergonomics, a solid modeling
      application strong in surface creation and editing with tangency, curvature, and
      visual controls will be very helpful. On the other hand, if you work with known
      prismatic shapes with standard features such as holes, fillets, and pockets,
      basic surface functions will be adequate.

      Do I work with large assemblies? If so, an application with in-context
      assembly design (the ability to edit a part within the context of the assembly)
      and assembly management capabilities is a plus. Also look for an application
      that allows surface models to be interchangeable with solid models within the
      assembly. Find out what the restrictions are, if any.

      Do I frequently import models from neutral formats (IGES and STEP)? If
      the answer is yes, then consider an application with strong support for
      surfaces. For example, tool and die designers need to repeatedly import multiple
      versions of customer parts that may come in many different formats. The CAD
      application should not only support surfaces but also provide extensive topology
      healing tools that help repair those occasional problematic parts.

      figure src=”http://www.cadalyst.com/solutions/model/0103model/fig6.jpg”
      width=300 border=1>
      Figure 6. Advanced part creation using the
      unified shape technology in Autodesk Inventor 6 lets you mix solids
      and surfaces to create stylized, complex, and sculpted
      parts.

      What
      applications will I be required to interface with?
      Make a list of those
      applications you send and receive part models from. You may afford to buy the
      same applications. If those on the list are based on licensed geometry kernels
      such as Parasolid or ACIS, look at applications that support that kernel to see
      if they can handle your design needs. If those on the list are high-end systems
      such as CATIA or Unigraphics, consider an application that is strong in surface
      modeling capability. Chances are that you will receive complex surface models.

      BRIGHT FUTURE
      As surface and solid modeling
      functions continue to converge, expect the line between traditional midrange
      solids-only applications and hybrid modelers to blur considerably. Though hybrid
      modelers have a leg up when it comes to developing the functionality and
      integration between surfaces and solids, this gap will continue to close as
      well.

      From the user’s point of view, midrange applications can only get better.
      Developers of hybrid modelers can’t afford to sit around and simply tout that
      they offer the best of both breeds. This convergence will spur them to develop
      more advanced surface functionality and possibly new areas to set their products
      apart. Developers of solids-only applications will finally break free of those
      bonds and look to expand their user bases into more complex applications. The
      future of midrange MCAD application development looks bright indeed!


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    5. 엽기리
      2003-02-24T19:56:00+09:00답변 등록 답변 등록 일시 2003-02-24 7:56 pm

      답글 감사드립니다.
      오늘 DEMO판을 가지고 엔지니어와 이리저리 Test 해 보았는데 그런대로 괜찮은것 같아지만 아쉬운점은 많군요.

      아직까지는 Surface 표현이 다른 미드레인지급보다는 떨어지는게 보이더군요.

      더 발전하겠죠…

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    6. 윤두영
      2003-02-25T00:00:00+09:00답변 등록 답변 등록 일시 2003-02-25 12:00 am

      좋으신 말씀임다…

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    7. 조준희
      2003-02-25T00:00:00+09:00답변 등록 답변 등록 일시 2003-02-25 12:00 am

      으음..3년이나 지났구나…^^

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    8. 전장혁
      2003-02-25T07:19:00+09:00답변 등록 답변 등록 일시 2003-02-25 7:19 am

      김기백님께서 먼저 답변하신대로, 인벤터는 solid modeling 세계과
      surface modeling 세계를 자유롭게 드나드는 hybrid modeling을
      추구하고 있습니다.

      인벤터 6에서 처음 소개되거나 보강된 surface 기능들을 열거하자면,

      3D 레일을 사용하는 로프트 (Loft with 3D rails)
      3D 단면을 사용하는 로프트 (Loft 3D profiles)
      Loft twist control: 인벤터6에서 보강됨
      면 삭제 (Delete Face)
      곡면 스티치 (니트 라고도 함) Stitch Surface (Knit)
      면 대치 (Replace Face)
      두껍게하기/간격띄우기 (Thicken/Offset)
      엠보싱 (Emboss)
      전사 (Decal)
      승격 (Promote): 인벤터6에서 보강됨
      3D 교차곡선 (3D Intersection Curve): 3D Sketch의 새 기능
      2D 스플라인 조정: 보타이 핸들 등

      위 기능에 대한 동영상 데모는
      http://www.autodesk.co.kr/adsk/index/0,,2327204-1169528,00.html
      를 보시면 됩니다.

      인벤터에 아직 없는 기능은 Surface Trim/Extend, Fill Surface,
      3D point들로 정의되는 3D spline curve 생성 등입니다.

      대부분의 인벤터 사용자들은 surface modeling 이 거의 필요없는
      기계 설계를 하고 있습니다. 설사 surface 기능이 필요해도
      인벤터의 현재 기능으로만도 충분히 해결되는 경우가 대부분이라는
      인벤터 뉴스그룹 (전세계 인벤터 사용자 토론 모임)에 올려진
      경험담들을 읽은 바 있습니다.

      그러나, free-form surface modeling 을 많이 해서 복잡한 곡면 생성을
      원하시는 분들은 인벤터 6의 surface 기능이 아직 초보 단계라고
      생각하실 수 있습니다.

      MDT 에서 보여준 surface 기능을 인벤터가 아직 못 따라가는 것도
      사실입니다. 그래서 일부 AIS (Autodesk Inventor Series) 사용자들은
      free-form surface modeling은 MDT에서 작업을 하고, 모든 나머지는
      인벤터를 사용한다는 AIS 사용자들의 경험담을 들은 바 있습니다.

      Mold는 인벤터에서 파생부품 (derived part)을 사용해서 생성할 수는
      있지만, 미흡한 점이 있는 게 사실입니다.

      오토데스크가 인벤터 R1 출시한 지 이제 3년 조금 넘었습니다.
      인벤터 초창기 때에는 산업기계 설계 분야에 중점을 두었지요.
      그 분야는 복잡한 곡면을 거의 사용하지 않고, 수많은 부품들로
      이루어진 조립품을 필요로 합니다.

      하지만, 인벤터가 자리를 잡아가고 있고, 쓰이는 용도가 다양한
      분야로 확장됨에 따라, 인벤터 개발팀에서는 surface와 mold 분야에도
      성능을 높이기 위해 힘쓰고 있습니다. 자세한 내용은 회사 방침상
      더이상의 계획은 말씀 못 드리지만, 기대하셔도 좋을 듯합니다.

      ============================================
      ▷◁ 대구지하철 희생자를 추모합니다!

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